Friday, August 30, 2024

ChromeStrike - MechList Pilots

An idea that I’ve been interested in for a while is creating a list of top NPC pilots and their mechs. I actually snuck the list in-setting into the lore in one of these past updates and have always found the idea amusing. Not only would it be good reading material, but it would also allow GM’s to quickly source named enemies or grant players inspiration/bases for their own character. Classic Armored Core stuff, and I've seen GM's have a lot of fun implimenting similar into their campaigns. The only thing stopping me in the past was the fact that a .ODT document with 50 pages of NPC’s and mechs would have to be manually updated every time I update the game and change parts. As of a few days ago I learned that PHP syntax and formatting is very similar to other programming languages I’ve worked with.

It's been several afternoons but I managed to add some PHP pages to my website for displaying ChromeStrike characters. Running off of several .csv datafiles, the thing is able to display a list of character sheets, and then also display each character when clicked on. No manual updating needed- in the future I’ll just need to update the .csv as needed and everything will be immediately up to date. How wonderful.

I’ve already included a few characters just to test the thing, but I am more than happy to take player and GM submitted ones and add them to the list. I’d like to shoot for fifty to start with, but I can easily add more characters than that if desired. If you or a player of yours has a character they want added then shoot me an email at suptg99 at gmail, along with a 256x256px (or so) .png of said character, and I’ll parse them into the database. Also let me know who you want them credited to. Here’s the link to the new character directory. It can also be accessed via the ChromeStrike page on my website in the list of useful links.


Characters:
https://www.dukefluffy.com/chromestrikestuff/characters.php

Sunday, August 11, 2024

ChromeStrike (0.9.93b)

Small update to fix some typos and unclear rules that were pointed out to me. See last version for more detailed thoughts and commentary on the recent changes.

Here's the new version.



0.9.93b

Fixed the Kneel manuever incorrectly requiring Biped legs specifically; now also mentions Quad/Hexa legs

Secondary Arms are now explicitly mentioned as not being able to Reload

Storage Tanks now increase the shots of a turret-arm weapon by 150% (up from 100%)

Added the AL-01b battlesuit because I could

Added explicit Difficult and Impassible Terrain rules to the Movement Manuever in the main rules section, absolutely not stolen from a GM's feedback

Rewrote the effects of the All Terrain Module and renamed it from 'ATM'

Monday, July 8, 2024

ChromeStrike (0.9.93)

There are two big additions with this version of ChromeStrike but don't expect any more patches for a while. Life is rearing its head again and I think advertising (to eventually be rewarded in more feedback and player awareness) would prove more effective than fiddling with rules and content further.

After much soul-searching I /have/ decided to go ahead and add the new, much more cheap Ammo Pouch upgrade to the game. ChromeStrike mechs have always been giant mechanical infantry, from the very initial concepting of the game (partly inspired by FlyingDebris' great artwork). Given that they have always been fairly agile despite their size, I think it is more than reasonable to allow them to strap up with magazines to reload their weapons with. It also makes plenty of logical sense- who would ever carry a single magazine of anything? This in mind, the ammo pouch upgrade is relatively cheap, can be purchased up to three times, and replenish during downtime for free. They still do require the spending of either one entire turn, or two utility actions, to perform the reload action, as well as a functional arm unit. This means that turret arms are unable to reload, though I did retool the Storage Tank upgrade to still be beneficial for them. It also means that they do require at least a bare amount of planning to be used. I might increase the duration of the reload action in the future, but this seems reasonable for now. Go crazy with those Rocket Launchers and Grenade Launchers.

The second main addition with this version is the addition of the Power Armor chapter. I have a gigantic power armor fetish, partially thanks to reading Starship Troopers at an impressionable age, and it's always been a shame they haven't been highlighted enough. My own special needs in mind, I have added nearly twenty pages of fluff and model variants for both light/stand power armor, heavy power armor, and battlesuits. They're all much more customizable than before as well, which should enhance character-scale combat at least a little bit. Go take a look. It is very likely some of the power armor / battlesuits / ammo pouches will need CR adjustment in the future, but that's future me's problem. Purely as fan-service I also added in one or two little new things for a recent group playing ChromeStrike.

In addition to those I have also changed how difficult terrain interacts with wheeled mobility units, and more explicitly explained what types of mobility units can use terrain or perform defensive actions. In the past treads/wheeled/hover chassis didn't seem to have any drawbacks unless you really dug into the rules, and found single sentence mentions hidden away. This in mind, there is now more a little more decision making between agile biped/quadrupedal models or the other mobility units, with their own particular strengths.

As always, feedback and comments are very appreciated. See the full patch notes for more info. Here's the new version.


0.9.93

Added 'Reload' manuever to the game in both the quick start and game rules sections

Ammo Pouches now instead grant a Magazine, which restores 100% of base shots to a ballistic or explosive weapon, and cost only 1CR each (down from 2CR)

Kneel/Unkneel/Take Cover now requires Biped, Quad, or Hexapod legs

Reduced the number of shots for Shredders to 8 and Assault Shotguns to 12 (down from 10 and 16)

Storage Tank has been reworked- costs 2 CR (down from 3CR) and now grants +2 Magazines OR increases the shots of a turret-arm weapon by 100%

Wheeled mobility units now have -2 SPD in Difficult Terrain in addition to the restriction on Kneel/Take Cover manuevers

The NRB-01 now costs 1CR more and has an Ammo Pouch for its Rocket Launcher

The CO-03 'Rocket Cutter' now costs 1CR more and has an Ammo Pouch for its Grenade Launcher

The AL-03 'Tha'ir' now costs 1CR more and has an Ammo Pouch for any one of its million weapons

Fixed some minor formating issues on the Battlesuit entry

Added Power Armor Operation and Battlesuit Operation skills to useful skills

Increased the cost of Light and Recon Power Armor equipment, and all light power armor now has additional upgrade and defect options

Added an entirely new chapter on Power Armor after mechs, sporting additional fluff on power armor usage, fitting, donning, variants, etc.

Added CT Corporate Security Armor for light power armor

Added Gutter Power Armor, CT Heavy Power Armor, CT Vanguard Armor, NRB Heavy Power Armor, NRB Zakladka Armor, EG Heavy Power Armor, and EG Infiltrator Armor for heavy power armor variants

Added the Power-Loader, CO Tetsujin, NRB-01b, NRB-02b, and EG-01b battlesuits

Grenade Launchers (Smoke) are now explicitly allowed to be fired at the user's feet to automatically hit

Updated the generic Mobile Infantry and Stealth Power Armor entries in the appendix to use the new Heavy Power Armor statblocks

The generic Battlesuit likewise references the section in the new Power Armor chapter for expanded rules and alternate models

Fixed the 'body' attribute bonus in Turnout Protection, renaming that bonus to Power instead, as was intended

Added Smart Grenade Launchers to the character armory

Battlesuits are now allowed to take torso/chassis upgrades instead of being limited to all the other parts

Added Expanded Cockpit to mech upgrades

REA upgrade renamed to ERA. Oops.

Wednesday, May 15, 2024

ChromeStrike (0.9.92)

I am now a full time clerk which means I am no longer at risk of starving. Hooray.

This version mostly contains a whole heap of part/weapon balance changes and some reformatting of the mech parts. Each of the mech part tables (head/chassis/arms/legs) have been broken down into seperate rows spread out over two pages. This has allowed me to add more flavor text for each of the parts, and I have the option in the future to add images to these as well. While it's a hair less neat and searchable than before I can more easily add additional pages for the parts. For the same reason part Upgrades / Defects have been broken up into two pages as well.

Shots/Ammo has always been something of an abstraction to keep the gameplay fast, quick, but add the depth of ammo management and cost/benefit decision making to weapons. I've been slowly leaning more and more toward making it less of an issue- it's not fun to have your shotgun run out of ammo half-way through an encounter. Previous methods of dealing with this was pretty much only the Storage Tank part, which occupies a shoulder slot, or the occasional niche ammo-boosting part. I've decided to add a new chassis upgrade called Ammo Pouch which can moderately boost weapon shots at the cost of a Utility Action and a humble amount of credits. I'll see if I get any feedback on this and how much it improves enjoyment.
Ammo Pouch (0-2) 2cr Torso
One charge. Choose a Ballistic or Explosive weapon. Once ammo is expended, may spend a charge and use a Utility Action to restore half the base number of shots. Can be bought twice.
Most of the part balancing with this update is adjusting parts that were overpriced compared to other similar price-range parts, or simplifying bonus effects. Most of these were fairly obvious in hindsight- the CO-01 head had one less wound, a weaker passive, and cost the same as the Bei-02 head. With the parts being broken up into two pages this has also given me the leeway to sprinkle in a few new ones. Enjoy.

I also gave Heavy Power Armor (aka Mobile Infantry) a new special rule that should turn them into the horrible little bastards they were always intended to be. They can now fire their weapons at any point during their Movement Phase so long as they move in a straight line. Ergo, they can now jump forward, choose to fire weapons while out of cover, and then finish their movement back into cover. PTSD and lots of Ready Attack Manuevers are sure to follow.

Here's the new version.



0.9.92

Added a 'low charge' state to Chemical Lasers where after their shots they can fire a few more times at decreased AP

Clarified the Photon Beam Emitter effects on enemies slightly; does not disable passive benefits or buffs from Shoulder parts

Rewrote the Emerald Green Mine Dispenser rules some and the mines now count Head/Arms hits as Leg hits instead

Explosive Sticks are now marked as not damaging to the user. I think that was the intention. Probably.

Sparkler shotgun shells now also penalize Dodge Rating on a hit enemy, and are now denoted as 'AP decreased by 1' instead of the more archaic 'Wound--1'

Heavy Chemical Laser special ammo is now 2cr

Mobile Infantry have a new special rule; they may now fire weapons before/during/after their movement phase so long as they move in a straight line

Added WSR-2; new 7cr weapon that is between the Minor Sniper and Sniper Cannon in cost and performance

Fixed the CO-03 mech's Rocket Pod having an incorrect statline

Corrected a few more weapon and part stats on the Very-Quick Reference page that were outdated

Broke up the head parts into two tables spread over two pages

Mono-01 head reworked; now provides bonus Attack-Rating

Reworded the Mono-01 bonus slightly

Reworked the Mono-03 bonus; same overall effect but should be faster in application

NRB-03 head now has a flat 2+ armor rating

Grenade Launcher's HE ammo renamed to Frag

Broke up the chassis parts into two tables spread over two pages

Fixed the CO-02 chassis having 3+ armor on the non-chassis parts; was intended to be 5+, as mentioned in the 0.9.90 patch notes

Slightly reworked the AL-01 chassis bonus; now can mount any weapon on the additional shoulder slot

On second thought reworked the CO-02 chassis bonus also

Added NRB-03 arms and reworked the Destroyer; now 4cr more expensive and a little more impressive in performance

Added an upgrade option to the CO Combat Drone

Gave the CT-02 chassis the same benefit as the CT-01 chassis

Added the Type 59 Iron Stallion mech to the Appendix; slightly higher-end BEICO soldier mech

Broke the............... mech arms into two pages

Ditto for the leg parts. The others are okay as is, not bothering with the shoulders, upgrades, or weapons yet. Maybe once I have graphics for them and an editor.

Readded that little cosmetic line at the top of each page that's been missing for way too long; book prettied up very slightly as a result, very happy with myself, 10/10

CO-01 arms reduced to 2cr from 3cr

CO-01 mechs now carry a Shotgun and their Machinegun has been replaced with a Burst Rifle, are actually threatening now :DDDDDDDDD

BEI-02 arms now also grant an additional missile launch each turn

CO-01 Combat Drones have lost their 2H Rifle; they now cost 2cr less

Alphabetically sorted the shoulder parts table

Broke the Upgrades/Defects into two pages

Added the Expired Muscles, Worn Joints, Damaged Gyros, Degraded, and Faulty Tube / Mag defects.

Added Ammo Pouch torso upgrade; restores 50% of base shots with a single weapon via a Utility action, one use. Can be purchased up to twice.

Knuckle Plates upgrade reduced to 2cr

Light/Medium Power Armor equipment now costs 50% (up from 25%) of their original cost to repair to full wounds

The CO-01 head now reduces movement accuracy penalties by 1; was overpriced compared to the Bei-02

Added Shahed Missiles to the missile weapon list; slower but more powerful Medium Missile analogue with counterplay

Fire and Forget Missiles can now be shot down by machineguns; added a rule to them for that interaction

Added Beta-Quad legs; dirt cheap quad legged option

Added Bazookas to the armory and reworked the NRB-03 Destroyer a little more

Clarified that all enemy targets must be declared during an Attack utility action before rolling to hit for all of them

Friday, March 29, 2024

ChromeStrike (0.9.91)

Still not quite dead.

Mentioned what would be in this update in the last post. I'll save the additional Mobile Infantry / Heavy Power Armor stuff for later. As always eagerly awaiting comments and feedback.

Here's the new version.



0.9.91

Fixed some typos in the Pile Driver and Plasma Cutter weapon descriptions

Custom weapons now have +1CR before modifiers for weapons that are 1cr or less (instead of only 0cr weapons)

Clarified that the Halberd, Explosive Halberd, and Plasma Cutter does not wound self

Power Armor (Mobile Infantry) now come stock with y-racks and no longer need to spend 2cr as a result. Yeehaw.

Also generally edited the Power Armor (Mobile Infantry) page. Clarified and added additional customization options

Grenade Launchers can now indirect fire and can mix and choose freely between three ammunition types at no cost

Rocket Launchers now have an additional follow-up attack on a penetrating hit

Grenade MG's now have two attacks and Hit +1 (changed from just AP0 and Damage x2)

Special weapon ammunition can now be used at will instead of being forced to be used for the first four shots

Added a Mono-TL Scope to the upgrade section; first* HELD type upgrade that enhances a Held weapon with a built-in Targeting Laser

Added a bit of explanation at the start of the Armory on shots/weapon ammunition

Reduced Shredder and Assault Shotgun shots to 10 and 16 respectively (down from 12 and 20)

Added Heavy Chemical Lasers; heavier and more expensive Chemical Laser (what else would you expect?)

Added Photon Beam Emitter; shorter range Laser that interferes with Control and shoulder part usage

Added Neutron Radiators; a new fun way to commit war crimes in ChromeStrike!

Laser/Flamethrower/Incendiary High-Itensity Fuel ammo now has further reduced range and -1 to hit

Reworded how long the Targeting Laser buff persists for allies

Battle Tank armor now counts as 3+ to the rear and top

Removed the Smart-Loader upgrade from the upgrades list as it's now included by default with all weapons

Added an Underslung GL upgrade to the upgrades list; single shot Grenade Launcher addon

Railguns may no longer be moved and fired without treads, now matches the Sniper Cannon

Shotgun buckshot ammo now increases number of attacks by 1 instead of doubling them; oversight with the addition of the Assault Shotgun

*Moved Emerald Garden's Aquatic Treatment from the SPECIAL AMMO bit in Ballistics to the Upgrades table to consolidate it with the new Held upgrades

Monday, March 11, 2024

ChromeStrike - Power Armor Brainstorming and WIP 0.9.91

I am presently adjusting to living in an off-grid cabin and about to finally start a new full-time job. Not quite dead yet.

The upcoming update is fairly light and simple, but I've been tempted for a while now to really expand on the Mobile Infantry / Heavy Power Armor stat-blocks in the Appendix. I am something of a power armor fetishist (even more than mechs to be honest), and having expanding rules for customing Power Armor would be really neat. I've already got a rough draft up for Heavy Power Armor which includes more in-depth rules for adding on new weapons and upgrades, and I'll probably come up with something slightly more expansive for character-class Recon Power Armor and similar. Is this something anyone would be interested in? I'll probably reformat the 'building the Heavy PA' rules to be one chunk and have the common Corp loadouts/spec models be their own seperate list, similar to standard statblocks that you would find in the appendix. Half to keep the Appendix clean and half to keep the layout even slightly sensical.

Other than my Power Armor fetish the upcoming update has some weapon buffs and the inclusion of several additional entirely new weapons. I'm also considering working on some (optional) rules for stealth and RADAR mechanics, but I haven't come up with anything that I am happy with quite yet. If and when I include something along those lines it'll probably be a little further out patch-wise.

Finally, I've also been considering statting up a whole bunch of sample NPC mercenaries in their own little booklet. Keeping something like that up-to-date with balance changes could be a headache, however. That anything anyone would be interested in? More specifically, what sort of content/additions/fixes would anyone like to see?

Thanks a ton to all the GM's and players out there who enjoy ChromeStrike. Your continued support and amusement helps motivate me to keep developing the game.



Rough Heavy Power Armor Rules





Future Patch 0.9.91 as-is

Fixed some typos in the Pile Driver and Plasma Cutter weapon descriptions

Custom weapons now have +1CR before modifiers for weapons that are 1cr or less (instead of only 0cr weapons)

Clarified that the Halberd, Explosive Halberd, and Plasma Cutter does not wound self

Power Armor (Mobile Infantry) now come stock with y-racks and no longer need to spend 2cr as a result. Yeehaw.

Also generally edited the Power Armor (Mobile Infantry) page. Clarified and added additional customization options

Grenade Launchers can now indirect fire and can mix and choose freely between three ammunition types at no cost

Rocket Launchers now have an additional follow-up attack on a penetrating hit

Grenade MG's now have two attacks and Hit +1 (changed from just AP0 and Damage x2)

Special weapon ammunition can now be used at will instead of being forced to be used for the first four shots

Added a Mono-TL Scope to the upgrade section; first* HELD type upgrade that enhances a Held weapon with a built-in Targeting Laser

Added a bit of explanation at the start of the Armory on shots/weapon ammunition

Reduced Shredder and Assault Shotgun shots to 10 and 16 respectively (down from 12 and 20)

Added Heavy Chemical Lasers; heavier and more expensive Chemical Laser (what else would you expect?)

Added Photon Beam Emitter; shorter range Laser that interferes with Control and shoulder part usage

Added Neutron Radiators; a new fun way to commit war crimes in ChromeStrike!

Laser/Flamethrower/Incendiary High-Itensity Fuel ammo now has further reduced range and -1 to hit

Reworded how long the Targeting Laser buff persists for allies

Battle Tank armor now counts as 3+ to the rear and top

Removed the Smart-Loader upgrade from the upgrades list as it's now included by default with all weapons

Added an Underslung GL upgrade to the upgrades list; single shot Grenade Launcher addon

Railguns may no longer be moved and fired without treads, now matches the Sniper Cannon

Shotgun buckshot ammo now increases number of attacks by 1 instead of doubling them; oversight with the addition of the Assault Shotgun

*Moved Emerald Garden's Aquatic Treatment from the SPECIAL AMMO bit in Ballistics to the Upgrades table to consolidate it with the new Held upgrades

Sunday, October 29, 2023

ChromeStrike (0.9.90)

Sorry for such a long wait before updating ChromeStrike. I have been very busy with real life full-time work and my ChromeStrike Unity project. Despite this, the homebrew remains my baby. As always, I will have it on at least the back of my mind, and I'll always be lurking and reading accounts/feedback of those who have played it. In the future it is theoretically possible that I could enlist some help to reformat the book entirely and see about getting it published on some small-print website service somewhere. Remains to be seen. Until then, enjoy the new changes and content.

My goal for this update has been addressing feedback from anonymous posters and youtube reviews. I'm still very proud of how comparatively rules-light the system is, and the critically acclaimed mech building, so I don't think there's much to be improved there. Instead I've shuffled chapters of the book around and added a 'quick start' guide earlier in the book, quickly walking people through character creation, mech creation, and the basic fundamentals of the game. Hopefully this will be enough to satisfy those complaining about the layout. Also, the table of contents now has hyperlinks. Should be nice to have.

Other than the formatting improvements I've also added the Islamic megacorp (al-Najm al-Khafi), a whole heap of melee weapons and part upgrades, and the long missing CT-02, CO-02, and NRB-02 mech models have finally been added to the appendix. I've also snuck a few other new things into the game. Feel free to read the massively bloated changelog.

Also I've officially changed ChromeStrike to Beta instead of Alpha just to stick it to the man.

Here's the new version.



0.9.90

Reformatted the book; moved various chapters around

The table of contents now has hyperlinks for the various chapters and sections

Added a Quick Start Guide early in the book with a brief synopsis of character creation, mech creation, and basic game rules

Added optional skill progression to Characters

Characters are now encouraged to have a call-sign, or pilot alias, for when they are murdering things to death in their mech

Fixed some inaccurate CR costs on the Very-Quick Reference page

The Bionics section in characters has been renamed to Cybernetics and extended with consumables, more fluff, more cybernetic upgrades, and the addition of side-effect rules.

A new prime has been added- the al-Najm al-Khafi! Cheapish spidertank mecha parts, high-end melee boosting parts, and additional stealth parts!

The BEI-01 chassis now only has 3+ armor from the front and sides; Chinesium chassis now gets hit at 4+ from behind- the PLA never retreats

The CO-02 chassis now also has +1 STR and 4+ armor on the chassis (others are still 5+); buffed from 5+ everything

Reworded the bonus of the BEI-02 Arms; now grants +4 Missile Capacity instead of +100% (was still referring to the old missile rules). Did the same for the BEI-02 chassis.

Added Cooling Tank to Shoulder Parts; partial stealth for campaigns and minor Missile DR boost

Reworked (Shoulder) Missile Hardpoints. Now grant +2 Missile Capacity and allow an extra missile to be fired each turn. Missile meta?

Missile Hardpoints are also no longer allowed to be purchased as built-in parts- was an oversight.

Added Heavy Missile Hardpoints to the shoulder parts list, just in case you can't get enough missiles. Grant +4 Missile Capacity, -1 SPD, and can be jettisoned once empty.

Added Gyro Stabilizer to the shoulder parts list. Allows the use of a 2H weapon in that arm but can no longer Swap it out in combat.

Added Hot Fibers (chassis) upgrade to part upgrades. Boosts mech Strength at the risk of damaging the arms when using melee attacks.

Added Active Camouflage Cloak (chassis) upgrade to part upgrades. Does about what you would expect.

Added Holster (chassis) upgrade to part upgrades. Does about what you would expect.

Added Forearm Shield (arms) upgrade to part upgrades. Built-in melee weapon that doesn't occupy a hand. Cheaper version of the EG Multitool.

Moved Secondary Arm from Shoulder Parts to Upgrades and renamed it to Secondary Arms (Plural); is now a Chassis Upgrade

Added Melee Override (head) upgrade to parts upgrade. More expensive, non-compatible head Software upgrade that also boosts Crit Chance in close-up combat.

Increased Shredder shots to 12 (up from 7) and Assault Shotgun shots to 20 (up from 12)

Added Explosive Sticks, Halberds, Explosive Halberds, and Plasma Cutters to the mech armory :DDDDD

Clarified with Shotfists and Pile Drivers that their shots are not consumed on a missed attack

Reworked Pile Drivers slightly; down to AP2, have a hit penalty, and shots increased to 4 (from 2)

Light Rocket Pod decreased to AP0, Rocket Pod decreased to AP1

Added info on how the Swap action works when holding two 1H weapons and swapping to a 2H one

The melee manuever now explicitly allows a player to attack with all equip melee weapons at once instead of punching or kicking

Reworded the Ready Attack action very slightly

Re-added in rules in the game about part hit locations, since I seemingly accidentally removed that entirely from the book somehow

Added in a much more expanded section about how GMs can balance enemy encounters and devise missions for their players In the World of ChromeStrike, MechList now runs an ongoing list of top fifty mech jockeys. I swear I'd just change the base setting to that one from your homebrew campaign (yes, you, you know if you are you) if I could get away with it.

Reworked character sheets in the book, also included Omar's sheet near his companions for completion sake and minor OCD

Finally added the long missing CT-02 "Shadowhawk", CO-O2 "Onryƍ" and NRB-02 "Koschei" mechs to the appendix. Welcome aboard you three.

Added an alternate Gunner loadout to the NRB-03 "Destroyer"- hideously minmaxed build for when you want a total party kill

Added al-Najm 01, 02, and 03 mechs to the appendix

Reordered the mechs in the appendix such that they are no longer randomly scattered around mixing the various corps models together

Added MULEs to the appendix- autonomous robot assistants which carry weapons for mechs

Rewrote the stat block for Tactical Nukes under Power Armor slightly

Fixed the 'spotting Stealth Power Armor' Perception check in their entry; is now a 2d6 test instead of a 1d6 test

Added another entry in Power Armor and Stealth Power Armor for using them in character-scale combat, in case that was missed earlier in the book in the character armory

Transport Helicopter weight and carry capacity increased

Land Transport modified- weight greatly increased, credits increased, given additional wounds

My personal website page on ChromeStrike is no longer just placeholder lorem ipsum text, eat shit (affectionate)

Removed the 'ChromeStrike as a wargame' bits as it's an extreme tertirary interest and should be its own short, supplimental rulebook instead of book bloat

Added some placeholder AI-generated artwork here and there in the book- will be removed later if/when published